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(Click here for audio excerpts. This transcript is permanently archived at gdhour.com)

Mickey Hart and Ram Rod
March 3, 1983
Interview with David Gans
San Rafael, California

Hart: I have a responsibility to Ram Rod. He knows what I’m capable of. If I don’t give everything, I think I’d be letting him down. He takes my drums and he hauls them all over the country, sets them up – and this is not a glamorous job, man – tears them down and brings them back as good as he took them out, so we’re able to be the Grateful Dead. I play for Ram Rod first. I play for Jerry and Bob and Billy. These are the people you play for first. If I played bad, it would be really hard to look at him if I gave up … if I wimp out, I’m not able to look at him. You couldn’t pay him enough if he saw me after 25 minutes giving up. These guys are the best, man. We have to perform for them. They’re as good as we are. Don’t think they’re not, man.

What’s in it for you, Ram Rod?

Ram Rod: What’s in it for me? I like it…. I get off when everything’s working right. The music melting together, fitting together, the musicians playing and not arguing while they’re playing. It only takes one guy to say, “I’m making sure that nothing goes further than me, right here.” Any one guy can stop it from going. I know that I can make the music bad if I want to, just by thinking. I’ve done it, to see if it’s true. But then, I’ve been listening and letting my consciousness do it for 15 years or so and after a while, it’s undeniable. After a while you realize that it does make a difference, whether you’re sitting there listening to it or not. There are times when I’ve left the stage because I’ve felt that my consciousness was keeping it from happening.

When those guys are out there playing, it’s consciousness working together. And when the music is really happening you don’t stop to think about what you’re going to play, ’cause if you stop to think about the next note, it’s gone past you. It goes through everybody. Whether you’re playing it or not, if you are there and the person who is playing it is aware of you being there, you’re part of it – and if he’s worried about you being there, what you’re thinking, you’re interrupting his consciousness. You’re keeping him from flowing with the other people’s minds.

Hart: I’ve never yelled at Ram Rod in 15 years, never raised my voice. Because he feels worse about messing up or not giving his all than I would. I wouldn’t even call him on it.

Ram Rod: I’m not the person in the spotlight … If I think it’s hard on me, what’s it like for the guy standing out there?

Hart: If my cymbal is a half-inch off, I could cut my knuckles. That’s the responsibility he has. He’ll take brass, glass and wood out and bring it back. That’s not an easy task. We just used to have drums. Now we have all these little percussion instruments that we take out, instruments that weigh hundreds of pounds as well as ounces. And they’re all brought back as good as they went.

Ram Rod: It means a lot to a musician when he’s playing and he looks back and sees somebody back there … you don’t have to worry if somebody is paying attention.

Hart: You never have to tell Ram Rod what to do; he’s self-motivated. Everybody in the Grateful Dead is self-motivated. Nobody is anybody’s boss.

Ram Rod: Someone once in an interview asked Steve [Parish], “Who’s the boss?” Steve said, “The situation is the boss.”

You guys all know what you’ve got to do.

Hart: He really cares. I never have to tell him twice. Once and that’s it. It’s the best possible situation to be in as a drummer, to have support like that.

… There’s a responsibility we have to our audience, but first we have it to ourselves and our brothers. We try to create an intimate atmosphere on the stage first. We know if we do that it can be sent to a million people…. It’s got to start right there. I play for Jerry, the guy right in front of me. We get it, they’ll get it. Don’t ever forget that. Sometimes people forget it and they play for the crowd, and that’s when it gets to be a show-biz trip.

And then there are those nights when no one can put their finger in the right place.

Hart: Right, there are those times when nobody can hold it.

Ram Rod: Yeah, and you start thinking about, “Have we given them enough?”

Hart: We’ll try harder the next time … the next one always has a great effort.

Ram Rod: People around here hate fuckin’ up twice the same way.

Hart: We don’t dig losin’ it. We don’t dig going all this way and playing bad music. That’s the worst.

You know what else this means? Do you know how few people in this country have jobs that they give a damn about?

Hart: Hardly any.

Ram Rod: … I didn’t come here and get this job …

Hart: He didn’t have a choice.

Ram Rod: But you’re right. There are a lot of people … doing something that they hate.

Hart: We’re lucky…. We couldn’t. I think there’s a craziness in all of us, that we couldn’t…. I think the Grateful Dead can stay valid because of the unique ingredients that we have. We’re still a little crazy, individually…. We just have to… maintain our own level of excellence. It just so happens it might be high enough to get away with for the next 20 years. Maybe…. We work for a living. You got to make sure you understand that. We’re a working band.

[Ram Rod] seems to live by Mark Twain’s statement, “It’s better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”

Ram Rod: Absolutely … In fact, keeping my mouth shut is one of my best qualities. Robert Hunter said one time, “Ram Rod never says anything, but every time he does he’s wrong.”

I hope you didn’t lose any sleep over that.

Ram Rod: Oh no. Any time Hunter says anything about me I’m flattered. I could die happy just knowing I knew that man.

Bill [Graham] was saying somethin about the audience, how they talk about you guys like family members. “Phil’s putting on a bit of weight.” It’s not the same as checking out Keith Richards’ boots.

Hart: It’s not judgmental or critical. They don’t judge the Grateful Dead in those terms.

There are more subtle things to look at. That’s why when there’s a three-night run, I’ll sometimes watch one whole night from way down front and sometimes I’ll sit way in the back. Sometimes I’ll go to a gig as a Healy person and listen from where he is, and sometimes I’ll go way up in the corner and see how far the vibes go.

Ram Rod: I’ll watch ballgames that way too. I’ll watch one or two guys, watch how they play. That’s how you find out if the guy is a good lineman.

Hart: Music is such a magical potion. The ingredients that goes into making really great music, most people don’t know what they are. We don’t.

Ram Rod: The Grateful Dead have never heard themselves play.

Hart: It’s the one perspective that we don’t have.

This music knows how to get higher than a lot of other music.

Hart: It has a certain kind of friendliness to it.

Ram Rod: We’re so lucky to do what we like doing.

Hart: Sometimes it really is incredible.

Ram Rod: Sometimes it just rocks your socks.

Hart: Sometimes it’s very big and you really have to take note of it. Sometimes it’s mediocre.

Ram Rod: Sometimes it’s a struggle, but very seldom is it bad.

Hart: It can be boring, it could be lackluster, without inspiration. But sometimes you can get to places that will keep you going for those other times.

Fantasy Records has just released Well-Matched: The Best of Merl Saunders and Jerry Garcia. I picked the tracks, and Blair Jackson wrote the excellent liner notes.

Mystery Train • Lonely Avenue • Merl’s Tune • Positively Fourth St. • After Midnight • Welcome to the Basement • Space • I Second That Emotion (previously unreleased) • The Harder They Come.

Linda Kalin and Deb Sibony designed the package, which is in the shape of a matchbook. Nice photos, too! (Note: the matches in the photo are the front page of the booklet.)